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	<title>Comments on: The Value of Life</title>
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	<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/</link>
	<description>The strange worlds of Sarah Gould</description>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 18:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenzoa.com/?p=284#comment-611</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No, not saying either of those two things.   I was more concerned with your values leading you towards such a negative view of others, when at the heart of your nature you are very very similar to them for better or for worse.   And, that you were placing blame rather forcefully on society when at the core it is not to blame.  If anything, what we have created, which you pointed out in your third sentence in this most recent first paragraph, is very likely (hopefully?) going to bring about what you desire, over time.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In my own way, I am preaching a certain level of acceptance and patience.  A bit annoying of me, I am sure.  I just have seen way more fear, frustration, and hate based on someone thinking their values are right for everyone than I would like.   Perhaps I have read too much about Gandhi as of late.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Oh, and we can ignore Sartre...yes, indeed...&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, not saying either of those two things.   I was more concerned with your values leading you towards such a negative view of others, when at the heart of your nature you are very very similar to them for better or for worse.   And, that you were placing blame rather forcefully on society when at the core it is not to blame.  If anything, what we have created, which you pointed out in your third sentence in this most recent first paragraph, is very likely (hopefully?) going to bring about what you desire, over time.</p>

<p>In my own way, I am preaching a certain level of acceptance and patience.  A bit annoying of me, I am sure.  I just have seen way more fear, frustration, and hate based on someone thinking their values are right for everyone than I would like.   Perhaps I have read too much about Gandhi as of late.</p>

<p>Oh, and we can ignore Sartre&#8230;yes, indeed&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-609</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 08:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenzoa.com/?p=284#comment-609</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Paul,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So... everything sucks inevitably? And there&#039;s no way to improve anything, so I might as well give up and support animal cruelty? We don&#039;t &lt;em&gt;need&lt;/em&gt; to enslave animals nowadays, so a history and a culture seem to be mere justifications for a bad habit.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Can I ignore Sartre&#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Anti-Semite&lt;/em&gt; for a moment and say that I don&#039;t disrespect omnivores, I just don&#039;t like that they &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; omnivores? I meant the original blog post to express my frustration with what to feel, but then I got all preachy. Darn.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I at least am not convinced I should consume animal products or exploit sentient beings in any way if I can help it. And honestly, I don&#039;t think other people should either.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>

<p>So&#8230; everything sucks inevitably? And there&#8217;s no way to improve anything, so I might as well give up and support animal cruelty? We don&#8217;t <em>need</em> to enslave animals nowadays, so a history and a culture seem to be mere justifications for a bad habit.</p>

<p>Can I ignore Sartre&#8217;s <em>The Anti-Semite</em> for a moment and say that I don&#8217;t disrespect omnivores, I just don&#8217;t like that they <em>are</em> omnivores? I meant the original blog post to express my frustration with what to feel, but then I got all preachy. Darn.</p>

<p>But I at least am not convinced I should consume animal products or exploit sentient beings in any way if I can help it. And honestly, I don&#8217;t think other people should either.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-608</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 06:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenzoa.com/?p=284#comment-608</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Why is that?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I believe the root cause is because we strive to be more than we are, a very defining characteristic of our humanity.   Once you start wishing to have more than what you have or be more than what you are now, you are no longer satisfied and make motions to change the balance of your life.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Oh, and I would hesitate to start placing blame on &#039;modern society&#039; as this has been going on for millennia and is happening today in even non-human species that your veganism is meant to be compassionate towards. People have been eating meat for far longer than recorded history.  You do not think that people have seen the butchering right before their eyes for that entire time?  Has there not been mobs and impulses and violence since we before left the trees?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;All modern society has is industrialization and a dramatic increase in population, which makes such atrocities easier, more expansive, and done farther away from our eyes.   Thanks to our creativity and technology.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;But hey, people make lots of decisions I don’t agree with, and I don’t hate them or cast them aside.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Perhaps not, but you did say you would no longer respect them or their values.   But perhaps respect is not needed in the way you think of it, in order to live among others.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why is that?&#8221;</p>

<p>I believe the root cause is because we strive to be more than we are, a very defining characteristic of our humanity.   Once you start wishing to have more than what you have or be more than what you are now, you are no longer satisfied and make motions to change the balance of your life.</p>

<p>Oh, and I would hesitate to start placing blame on &#8216;modern society&#8217; as this has been going on for millennia and is happening today in even non-human species that your veganism is meant to be compassionate towards. People have been eating meat for far longer than recorded history.  You do not think that people have seen the butchering right before their eyes for that entire time?  Has there not been mobs and impulses and violence since we before left the trees?</p>

<p>All modern society has is industrialization and a dramatic increase in population, which makes such atrocities easier, more expansive, and done farther away from our eyes.   Thanks to our creativity and technology.</p>

<p>&#8220;But hey, people make lots of decisions I don’t agree with, and I don’t hate them or cast them aside.&#8221;</p>

<p>Perhaps not, but you did say you would no longer respect them or their values.   But perhaps respect is not needed in the way you think of it, in order to live among others.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenzoa.com/?p=284#comment-601</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thank you, Paul. I do hope to grow most of my own food someday, and I already try to walk as far as I am able, and buy as little and as conscientiously as possible; but you&#039;re right to say that judging others makes me less compassionate. I manage to swing wildly between misanthropy and humanism all the time.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Humans are at once awesome beings, with all our creative and technological prowess -- but &quot;with great power comes great responsibility.&quot; We so often misuse our abilities that I wonder if it&#039;s worth having them in the first place. If we could have &lt;em&gt;super&lt;/em&gt;powers would it be worth the supervillains? I&#039;d worry that we&#039;d end up with the world of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Watchmen&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Not eating meat just seems to be an obvious and relatively easy way to cut way down on the harm ripples. And I have yet to hear a good reason to eat meat -- &quot;convenience,&quot; &quot;culture,&quot; and &quot;taste&quot; still fall flat to my ears when set against the tremendous suffering of living (and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ciwf.org/education/animal.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sentient&lt;/a&gt;) beings and the environmental damage caused by animal industries.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But hey, people make lots of decisions I don&#039;t agree with, and I don&#039;t hate them or cast them aside. No one I know is intentionally malicious or destructive (at least not while sober). Modern society just seems to be structured so that our smallest actions -- paying taxes, buying clothes, traveling, eating -- hurt people and animals and our environment far more than we think or intend. Why is that?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I feel helpless when I&#039;m part of mainstream society, prey to the worst of human impulses and mob mentalities. So I fight back by bringing my own consciousness to as many matters of living as possible, and redesigning them from the ground up. Which is, of course, practically impossible. So thank goodness for veganism! It must be one of simplest choices I&#039;ve ever made, and I feel better about it all the time.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Paul. I do hope to grow most of my own food someday, and I already try to walk as far as I am able, and buy as little and as conscientiously as possible; but you&#8217;re right to say that judging others makes me less compassionate. I manage to swing wildly between misanthropy and humanism all the time.</p>

<p>Humans are at once awesome beings, with all our creative and technological prowess &#8212; but &#8220;with great power comes great responsibility.&#8221; We so often misuse our abilities that I wonder if it&#8217;s worth having them in the first place. If we could have <em>super</em>powers would it be worth the supervillains? I&#8217;d worry that we&#8217;d end up with the world of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen" rel="nofollow">Watchmen</a>.</p>

<p>Not eating meat just seems to be an obvious and relatively easy way to cut way down on the harm ripples. And I have yet to hear a good reason to eat meat &#8212; &#8220;convenience,&#8221; &#8220;culture,&#8221; and &#8220;taste&#8221; still fall flat to my ears when set against the tremendous suffering of living (and <a href="http://www.ciwf.org/education/animal.html" rel="nofollow">sentient</a>) beings and the environmental damage caused by animal industries.</p>

<p>But hey, people make lots of decisions I don&#8217;t agree with, and I don&#8217;t hate them or cast them aside. No one I know is intentionally malicious or destructive (at least not while sober). Modern society just seems to be structured so that our smallest actions &#8212; paying taxes, buying clothes, traveling, eating &#8212; hurt people and animals and our environment far more than we think or intend. Why is that?</p>

<p>I feel helpless when I&#8217;m part of mainstream society, prey to the worst of human impulses and mob mentalities. So I fight back by bringing my own consciousness to as many matters of living as possible, and redesigning them from the ground up. Which is, of course, practically impossible. So thank goodness for veganism! It must be one of simplest choices I&#8217;ve ever made, and I feel better about it all the time.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.zenzoa.com/articles/2008/05/10/the-value-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 05:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenzoa.com/?p=284#comment-599</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sarah, on one hand I want to comfort you and point out things that make the world a bit less horrific.  That there are people like you who do think like this and want to change others so as to make the world a better, more compassionate place.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And yet, on the other hand, there is an entirely  more in depth point here.  Your mere existence has negative consequences.   Just by existing, by continuing to exist, you are sending ripples through the world that are causing harm.  There is a cost to living.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Every day I think about what my choices affect in the world and I make a decision based on what level of harm I am willing to inflict to continue living here.  Do I continue paying my taxes despite the fact my government has invaded or helped invaded over a dozen countries since I have been born, causing unfathomable death and destruction?  Do I use my car despite the fact that it releases CO2 that likely is contributing to the warming of the planet and scientists foresee great drought in many parts of the world as a result?  Should I buy an item in the store even though it might have been created by an underpaid, maltreated worker in a  third world country?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Et cetera.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;These criticisms can be leveled at nearly every single person, including you.  There is a certain hypocrisy in just living with this compassion for society and the environment you speak of.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And yet, we value life.  We all want to continue living.  But living how and by causing how much of an impact?  You have made your own choices.  They are not extreme, I suspect, unless you do not pay taxes, grow all your own food, walk or bike everywhere (no more traveling!), and wear clothing only made by people you know.   Once you start judging others, then you are going to bring in judgments on your own choices.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Compassion for others has been entirely eliminated with such an approach, so I would not be so quick to have your values leading you down this path.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, on one hand I want to comfort you and point out things that make the world a bit less horrific.  That there are people like you who do think like this and want to change others so as to make the world a better, more compassionate place.</p>

<p>And yet, on the other hand, there is an entirely  more in depth point here.  Your mere existence has negative consequences.   Just by existing, by continuing to exist, you are sending ripples through the world that are causing harm.  There is a cost to living.</p>

<p>Every day I think about what my choices affect in the world and I make a decision based on what level of harm I am willing to inflict to continue living here.  Do I continue paying my taxes despite the fact my government has invaded or helped invaded over a dozen countries since I have been born, causing unfathomable death and destruction?  Do I use my car despite the fact that it releases CO2 that likely is contributing to the warming of the planet and scientists foresee great drought in many parts of the world as a result?  Should I buy an item in the store even though it might have been created by an underpaid, maltreated worker in a  third world country?</p>

<p>Et cetera.</p>

<p>These criticisms can be leveled at nearly every single person, including you.  There is a certain hypocrisy in just living with this compassion for society and the environment you speak of.</p>

<p>And yet, we value life.  We all want to continue living.  But living how and by causing how much of an impact?  You have made your own choices.  They are not extreme, I suspect, unless you do not pay taxes, grow all your own food, walk or bike everywhere (no more traveling!), and wear clothing only made by people you know.   Once you start judging others, then you are going to bring in judgments on your own choices.</p>

<p>Compassion for others has been entirely eliminated with such an approach, so I would not be so quick to have your values leading you down this path.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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